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people aren't suddenly going to like him more than barack obama in the last five weeks of the campaign. get over it, yes, you may like barack obama more than me but he hasn't done the job. >> richard says barack obama needs to play it safe. you say, mitt romney, don't play it nice. that's an interesting summation of the debate strategies. i want to talk about vice president biden, a favorite subject for both of you. >> america loves joe biden. >> i love joe biden. he said something on the campaign trail something yesterday and the republicans were quick to pounce. let's listen to what he said. >> this is deadly earnest. how they can justify, how they can justify, raising attacks on the middle class has been buried the last four years. how in lord's name can they justify raising their taxes with these tax cuts? >> and this is how paul ryan responded. >> i thought he was taking my speech. you know what? we agree. the middle class has been buried over the last four years. they're being buried by obama care, by borrowing, taxes, spending, more regulations, all this uncertainty plaguing bus
people aren't suddenly going to like him more than barack obama in the last five weeks of the campaign. get over it, yes, you may like barack obama more than me but he hasn't done the job. >> richard says barack obama needs to play it safe. you say, mitt romney, don't play it nice. that's an interesting summation of the debate strategies. i want to talk about vice president biden, a favorite subject for both of you. >> america loves joe biden. >> i love joe biden. he said...
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Oct 8, 2012
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both of them showed a lot more energy than barack obama did last week. >> howie, it's ryan. listen. in that clip, the thing i thought was interesting about this debate is jon stewart, it seems to me he's sort of grown into a more of -- less of a comedian and more of a pundit role in the last couple years. his thing was always that you can't really hold him responsible for his views because he's skritrictly a comedian. he would laugh about the fact he's on comedy central, this low budget cable channel. there he is talking about what he would do about health care. do you think this guy has sort of -- there's an evolution here going on with stewart? >> absolutely. i've been watching that evolution for years. you'll remember he had the million moderate march or whatever it was called down on the mall here in dc a couple years ago. he wants to be taken seriously. he's a very sharp critic. not just of those of us in the media who sometimes get stung by what he has to say. but of the political scene. and i think as you watch him on "the daily show," yes, he is a very cogent comic. but more
both of them showed a lot more energy than barack obama did last week. >> howie, it's ryan. listen. in that clip, the thing i thought was interesting about this debate is jon stewart, it seems to me he's sort of grown into a more of -- less of a comedian and more of a pundit role in the last couple years. his thing was always that you can't really hold him responsible for his views because he's skritrictly a comedian. he would laugh about the fact he's on comedy central, this low budget...
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not this week, the following week. going to be at hofstra university. i think our own candy crowley will be moderating. we're going to see a different, a more aggressive barack obama. >> we have the vice presidential debate coming up, as well. we'll talk about that next time. thank you, paul. we appreciate it. >>> other news, now, today. new clues in the search for a missing girl in colorado. police say they found 10-year-old jessica ridgeway's backpack and water bottle six miles from her home. investigators searched for jessica. she disappeared friday morning after leaving home to meet friends. >>> nascar burned into bumper cars. look at the last lap of sunday's race. a massive wreck involving 25 cars. veteran drivers say they have never seen anything like this. tony stewart is taking the blame for triggering that incredible crash. every one walked away without injury. when the exhaust fumes all cleared, matt kenseth won the race. >> this is why people watch nascar. >>> a record 48-straight games with a touchdown pass for saints quarterback drew brees.
not this week, the following week. going to be at hofstra university. i think our own candy crowley will be moderating. we're going to see a different, a more aggressive barack obama. >> we have the vice presidential debate coming up, as well. we'll talk about that next time. thank you, paul. we appreciate it. >>> other news, now, today. new clues in the search for a missing girl in colorado. police say they found 10-year-old jessica ridgeway's backpack and water bottle six miles...
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Oct 9, 2012
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and the fight over middle class tax cuts is one the obama campaign knows it cannot lose. i saw this firsthand watching the debate last week with a group of undecided voters in colorado oh. when romney talked about not raising taxes on the middle class, the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. they had these stylus things, and they shot it off the chart. it earned him one of the highest marks of the night from that focus group. so this fight of the middle class comes at a time when the president is on the defensive and lost some ground in key areas. cnn orc poll tonight shows the president's lead is half a point outside the margin of error. last month he was leading with nine points. we told you last night about a pughel poll which shows romney leading obama. you can see also barely outside the margin of error. in that same poll, the president's 18-point lead among women disappeared. he's now running even with romney. so who is winning this vital war over middle class tax cuts? rah ham salon joins us and john avlon, senior political columnist at "newsweek" and "the daily
and the fight over middle class tax cuts is one the obama campaign knows it cannot lose. i saw this firsthand watching the debate last week with a group of undecided voters in colorado oh. when romney talked about not raising taxes on the middle class, the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. they had these stylus things, and they shot it off the chart. it earned him one of the highest marks of the night from that focus group. so this fight of the middle class comes at a time when the...
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you can watch the vice presidential debate right here on cnn this week. joe biden/paul ryan go at it on thursday. the coverage begins at 7:00 eastern time. >>> the rumble in the air-conditioned auditorium lived up to the name last neat. fox news host bill o'reilly and jon stewart faced off in a debate at george washington university. some found it more entertaining than the presidential one. >> in man has offended -- this man over here has offended every single american. are you go to stand there -- are you sitting or standing? >> i read the bible. >> we are only as good as dpaish. >> i am short, but when you tell me i'm short, i don't blame the liberal weights or measures bureau or suggest my numbers are skews and i'm really 6'1" if only the lame street media would tell people. i trust i'm 5'7". >> you don't know this, but the feds pay for that licft. all right? >> if you missed it last night watch it online at therumble2012.com. >>> people are lining up to stroet for president, but the man they hope to elect is in ven venezuela. we'll go there live. the
you can watch the vice presidential debate right here on cnn this week. joe biden/paul ryan go at it on thursday. the coverage begins at 7:00 eastern time. >>> the rumble in the air-conditioned auditorium lived up to the name last neat. fox news host bill o'reilly and jon stewart faced off in a debate at george washington university. some found it more entertaining than the presidential one. >> in man has offended -- this man over here has offended every single american. are you...
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president obama trying to bounce back from his debate performance hits the campaign trail this week making stops in california and the key battleground state of ohio. he's also expected to visit other swing states later in the week and continue preparing for his next presidential debate. >> reporter: i'm paul steinhauser at the political deck. foreign policy will be in the spotlight tomorrow when republican challenger mitt romney gives what's being billed as a major speech at the virginia military institute. but the highlight of the week will be the vice presidential debate. vice president joe biden and congressman paul ryan face-off thursday in their only showdown in danville, kentucky. >> reporter: i'm poppy harlow in new york. wall street gears up for earnings season this week. lots of big companies reporting, including aluminum jind al gian and jpmorgan case. did earnings decline in the third quarter. also ahead this week, the latest inflation data and a look at consumer sentiment. we'll track all that and the week's business news on cnn money. >> reporter: i'm "showbiz tonight's" a.j.
president obama trying to bounce back from his debate performance hits the campaign trail this week making stops in california and the key battleground state of ohio. he's also expected to visit other swing states later in the week and continue preparing for his next presidential debate. >> reporter: i'm paul steinhauser at the political deck. foreign policy will be in the spotlight tomorrow when republican challenger mitt romney gives what's being billed as a major speech at the virginia...
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it may be more aggressive than we saw this time than president obama last week. maybe he'll bring up the 47% and bain capital. stay tuned, suzanne. >> tell us a little bit about that debate that happened not with the real guys, but fox news's bill o'reilly and comedy central's john stewart facing off over the weekend. >> yeah. i think this was a little more entertaining than the one we saw last wednesday. these guys dent have the burden of running for president, but enough of me. let's take a listen. >> mike is here in the audience sxfshgs he asked this question. if you could see any american elected president, who would you choose and why? >> i would say clint eastwood have to be my guy. >> well, why don't we ask him. so, um -- what? tell them to do what? >> that was one of the lighter moments. you know, there was some serious parts to this debate. both gentlemen talked policy, and i think, though, the american viewers were the winners in that debate, suzanne. >> absolutely. thank you, paul. you can watch the vice presidential debate right here on cnn. joe biden
it may be more aggressive than we saw this time than president obama last week. maybe he'll bring up the 47% and bain capital. stay tuned, suzanne. >> tell us a little bit about that debate that happened not with the real guys, but fox news's bill o'reilly and comedy central's john stewart facing off over the weekend. >> yeah. i think this was a little more entertaining than the one we saw last wednesday. these guys dent have the burden of running for president, but enough of me....
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barack obama and mitt romney, they are getting ready to face-off tomorrow night. and as cnn's national political correspondent jim acosta discovered, it will be one of the very two times the two men have actually met in person. jim is joining us live from littleton, colorado. what's the latest on this particular score, jim? >> reporter: well, wolf, i can tell you right now that ann romney is about to take the stage behind me. she's going to be holding an event here in littleton, colorado, in a few moments from now. she's been one of this campaign's most effective surrogates and been very busy doing just that while her husband, mitt romney, has been doing debate preparations just a short distance away in denver. it will be fascinating, wolf, to watch the body language between mitt romney and president obama tomorrow night when they meet face-to-face as the obama campaign revealed to cnn, the two men have only met a few times in the past. flash back to 2008 and there they are. then-senator barack obama and mitt romney sharing a few moments on stage after back-to-bac
barack obama and mitt romney, they are getting ready to face-off tomorrow night. and as cnn's national political correspondent jim acosta discovered, it will be one of the very two times the two men have actually met in person. jim is joining us live from littleton, colorado. what's the latest on this particular score, jim? >> reporter: well, wolf, i can tell you right now that ann romney is about to take the stage behind me. she's going to be holding an event here in littleton, colorado,...
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the latest pew poll conducted after last week's debate puts romney firmly in the lead of president obama, 49 to 45. in the same poll in september, the president had a 51-43 lead. romney seems to be gaining ground with women. in a moment, i will ask polling guru nate silver what it all really means. meanly, a newly energized candidate romney is wasting no time pressing his advantage, today hitting the president with tough talk on foreign policy, including the deadly attack on americans in libya. >> this latest assault can't be blamed on a reprehensible video insulting islam, despite the administration's attempts to convince us of that for so long. no, as the administration has finally conceded, these attacks were the deliberate work of terrorists who use violence to impose their dark ideology on others, especially on women and girls who are fighting to control much of the middle east today and who seek to wage perpetual war on the west. >> joining me now, a man who knows quite a lot about mitt romney's views on all this, norm coleman, advisor to the romney campaign on foreign policy and f
the latest pew poll conducted after last week's debate puts romney firmly in the lead of president obama, 49 to 45. in the same poll in september, the president had a 51-43 lead. romney seems to be gaining ground with women. in a moment, i will ask polling guru nate silver what it all really means. meanly, a newly energized candidate romney is wasting no time pressing his advantage, today hitting the president with tough talk on foreign policy, including the deadly attack on americans in libya....
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>> they've been cheerleading for barack obama for weeks now and i think they'll continue, but i'm not concerned about that. this will be the opportunity for mitt romney to talk directly to the american people without that filter and tell them about his plan for the next four years, because the american people, the american middle class know that they've been buried for the past four years, to borrow joe biden's phrase. theyave been buried by debt, the higher taxes and know they're going to be buried further. in my state of virginia, small businesses and families will get hit hard by the obama tax increases as well as the defense cuts. that's why we like the plan of mitt romney, which is going to, on day one, allow us to do things like the keystone pipeline, open up that. those are good high-paying jobs, reverse regulations on coal that have cut 1,200 jobs in virginia. also tell the state that -- >> excuse me. i was going to say, you think he's going to lay all of that out tonight in this 9 0-minute debate, all of those points? >> sure. he's going to be talking about how he's going to
>> they've been cheerleading for barack obama for weeks now and i think they'll continue, but i'm not concerned about that. this will be the opportunity for mitt romney to talk directly to the american people without that filter and tell them about his plan for the next four years, because the american people, the american middle class know that they've been buried for the past four years, to borrow joe biden's phrase. theyave been buried by debt, the higher taxes and know they're going...
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we've seen in the last few weeks. i would say this. i started the whole career at 30 something years plus ago in political debate. i would look for what we call a spring board. and that is to take the things they're talking about all are in the past. if i remember mitt romney, i would move this into the future, the impact of the legislation we've seen and what impact it will have on the future in the next four years versus what he offers in the next four years. i haven't heard enough of that. and if you've seen romney come out quickly with answers, there are one, two, three, enumerated that sounds like real ideas and proposals, she'll appear to be a lot more of a together candidate than we've seen in the past. if he comes out the way he's been generally speaking trying to get obama upset, obama's not going to bite for it. he needs to be really concise, enumerate and one zinger, not a bunch of them. >> thanks so much. >> thank you so much, carol. >> i hope you visit us again. cnn's live coverage starts at 7:00 eastern. delicious sugar-f
we've seen in the last few weeks. i would say this. i started the whole career at 30 something years plus ago in political debate. i would look for what we call a spring board. and that is to take the things they're talking about all are in the past. if i remember mitt romney, i would move this into the future, the impact of the legislation we've seen and what impact it will have on the future in the next four years versus what he offers in the next four years. i haven't heard enough of that....
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three weeks ago it wasor romney. now it' obama. i think biden's job is to sort of stop the bleeding. he doesn't need -- he needs to be a narrative. >> he can't attack. he has to defend. if it had gone well, he could have attacked ryan and romney. now he has to defend the president. >> well, i disagree completely because here's the problem with that. this mitt romney's the same mitt romney that we've known for the last six or seven months, the same mitt romney that voters very cautious with the last six or seven months. it's not about defending the president, it's about taking the fight to mitt romney making them defend, that fantasy show he put on during the other debate where he made stuff up and didn't know his own tax plan, making them stick to what they've been the last six or seven months. >> this is where i think paul ryan will have pressure on him and where i expect paul ryan to perform very well. i mean, i found obama's debate performance totally lacking in specifics. we still don't know what his tax plan is or his deficit
three weeks ago it wasor romney. now it' obama. i think biden's job is to sort of stop the bleeding. he doesn't need -- he needs to be a narrative. >> he can't attack. he has to defend. if it had gone well, he could have attacked ryan and romney. now he has to defend the president. >> well, i disagree completely because here's the problem with that. this mitt romney's the same mitt romney that we've known for the last six or seven months, the same mitt romney that voters very...
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obama having issues with tone in past debates. let's listen to a famous moment. >> he's very likable. i agree with that. i don't think i'm that bad. >> you're likable enough. >> thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> roland martin is here, saying that was a funny line. a lot of people thought it came off as smug at best and a lot worse. >> i don't expect any major gaffes from either candidate. quite frankly, i don't expect a race to change as much. these people have been on the political scene for months or years. there may be, you know, a small number that are undecided. but if those undecideds were to break evenly, i think the president will win this election by a huge margin. >> the margin right now looks anything but huge. razor thin within the margin of error. a new campaign line has been taken up over the past few days, saying we can't afford another four years of president obama. the romney campaign has released that and also american crossroads, one of these super pacs, has released an ad that focuses on this issue. >> $5
obama having issues with tone in past debates. let's listen to a famous moment. >> he's very likable. i agree with that. i don't think i'm that bad. >> you're likable enough. >> thank you so much. i appreciate it. >> roland martin is here, saying that was a funny line. a lot of people thought it came off as smug at best and a lot worse. >> i don't expect any major gaffes from either candidate. quite frankly, i don't expect a race to change as much. these people...
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and now, five weeks before the election, he's saying that his big bold idea is never mind. >> reporter: but he also showed flashes of the kind of testiness sources in both camps feared from the candidates, except obama's was directed at the moderator, not romney. >> the last point i'd make before -- >> your two minutes is up. >> i think i had five seconds before you interrupted me, was -- >> reporter: romney did have his own awkward moderator moment. >> i'm sorry, jim, i'm going to stop the subsidy to pbs, i like big bird, like you, too. >> reporter: one of the surprising pts of the president's performance is what he didn't say, no mention of romney's 47% remark, no talk of bain capital, nothing about romney's own taxes. he did play the romney is a hypocrite card when it comes to health care. >> the irony is we've seen this model work really well in massachusetts. because governor romney did a good thing working with democrats in the state to set up what is essentially the identical model and as a consequence, people are covered. there it hasn't destroyed jobs. >> reporter: romney who
and now, five weeks before the election, he's saying that his big bold idea is never mind. >> reporter: but he also showed flashes of the kind of testiness sources in both camps feared from the candidates, except obama's was directed at the moderator, not romney. >> the last point i'd make before -- >> your two minutes is up. >> i think i had five seconds before you interrupted me, was -- >> reporter: romney did have his own awkward moderator moment. >> i'm...
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election day just four weeks away, four weeks. this is the big time. president obama holes a campaign rally today at ohio state university. mitt romney holds rallies in both ohio and iowa. and i want to take another look at those two polls that everyone is talking about this morning. they seem to paint different pictures of this race. the pew research center gives mitt romney a four-point lead over president obama. 49% to 45%. that survey did include more likely voters who identify themselves as republicans. however, the latest gallup tracking poll has president obama leading mitt romney 50% to 45%. this poll does include voters who were surveyed before the presidential debate which most voters say romney won though interestingly enough, it showed movement toward obama yesterday. all right. hard to keep track of. there's a lot going on here. cnn political reporter peter hamby joins us live from washington. please, peter, make sense of this for us. >> okay. these are the first two real credible polls we've seen since the debate. the bottom line here is
election day just four weeks away, four weeks. this is the big time. president obama holes a campaign rally today at ohio state university. mitt romney holds rallies in both ohio and iowa. and i want to take another look at those two polls that everyone is talking about this morning. they seem to paint different pictures of this race. the pew research center gives mitt romney a four-point lead over president obama. 49% to 45%. that survey did include more likely voters who identify themselves...
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about an even split, slight advantage for pro obama forces. you cannot turn on the tv here without being bombarded. that won't stop. >> two weeks, two weeks left. four weeks left. you're fast-forwarding time on me here, john king. >> four weeks. >> mother of all swing states, ohio. tonight, must see tv, wolf blitzer live interview with mitt romney, 6:00 eastern, only here on cnn and then fast-forward to thursday, it is the vice presidential debate, joe biden versus paul ryan. cnn special live coverage starts 7:00 p.m. eastern, 4:00 pacific. >>> got religion? four more americans apparently not. a surprising new study out on americans and religion shows just how many people are checking out a religious service altogether. when you take a closer look... ...at the best schools in the world... ...you see they all have something very interesting in common. they have teachers... ...with a deeper knowledge of their subjects. as a result, their students achieve at a higher level. let's develop more stars in education. let's invest in our teachers... ..
about an even split, slight advantage for pro obama forces. you cannot turn on the tv here without being bombarded. that won't stop. >> two weeks, two weeks left. four weeks left. you're fast-forwarding time on me here, john king. >> four weeks. >> mother of all swing states, ohio. tonight, must see tv, wolf blitzer live interview with mitt romney, 6:00 eastern, only here on cnn and then fast-forward to thursday, it is the vice presidential debate, joe biden versus paul ryan....
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i've never seen a candidate this late in the game so far ahead throw in the towel like obama did last week and throw away every advantage. >> oh, stop. >> people on twitter also freaking out on both sides about the polls. >> i've known andrew for 15 years. and he's sometimes, one of my favorite writers but sometimes is prone to exaggeration and hyper ventilation. >> daily beast. >> here's the deal. he's freaking out and i'll say it this way. he wasn't freaking out when he was up. i said guys the race will tighten up. i don't believe any of this stuff at all. if you also go gang busters because he's up you'll frequent out when he's down. this is why it's called an election. it's going to be tight. >> explain the difference between the more polling of republicans. >> two theories. one theory is that republicans were very excited after the debate and more willing to answer the phone and answer questions from a pollster. when you put a survey into the field you get more republicans to answer. the other theory is it's random luck. sometimes you poll more republicans than democrats. this is
i've never seen a candidate this late in the game so far ahead throw in the towel like obama did last week and throw away every advantage. >> oh, stop. >> people on twitter also freaking out on both sides about the polls. >> i've known andrew for 15 years. and he's sometimes, one of my favorite writers but sometimes is prone to exaggeration and hyper ventilation. >> daily beast. >> here's the deal. he's freaking out and i'll say it this way. he wasn't freaking out...
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answer last week. and what you've seen the obama campaign do is lit gate tigate t debate argument that mitt romney was dishonestanswer last week. and what you've seen the obama campaign do is litigate the post debate argument that mitt romney was dishonest during the first faceoff, so they'll be hammering him on that, putting big bird out on the campaign trail, he they have the new ad that came out this morning showing mitt romney going after big bird. and we also had a chance to ask kevin madden about that and he said, hey, wait a minute, this is troubling that this is what the obama campaign has resorted to. and all morning long, romney and republican party officials have been blasting out e-mails to reporters showing what president obama said back in 2008 when he was center obama at the democratic convention when he said when you're in trouble out on the campaign trail, sometimes you make these campaigns about small things and that's what the romney campaign is accusing the president of doing right
answer last week. and what you've seen the obama campaign do is lit gate tigate t debate argument that mitt romney was dishonestanswer last week. and what you've seen the obama campaign do is litigate the post debate argument that mitt romney was dishonest during the first faceoff, so they'll be hammering him on that, putting big bird out on the campaign trail, he they have the new ad that came out this morning showing mitt romney going after big bird. and we also had a chance to ask kevin...
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you heard the same thing from president obama sunday night at his rally in colorado. i think it also matters who wins or loses. both candidates in their final debate prep. mitt romney had the rally in colorado last night. he's hunkering down with the senator playing obama. you won't see much of mitt romney until wednesday night. same thing for the president. he's in nevada. he'll fly to denver on wednesday. he's got senator john kerry playing mitt romney in the debate preps. the president did have a chance to talk to a few people. he delivered some pizzas to the local obama for reelection campaign office out there. very nice of them. delivering pizza to the workers. he also talked about not getting out much. take a listen. >> basically they're keeping me indoors all the time. it's a drag. they're making me do my homework. >> wow, wow. this is john. he's doing his homework. >> also you have some new polls for us. where are we seeing the candidates now? >> nationally, this race is extremely close. four polls came out yesterday over the last 4 hours. let's talk about our
you heard the same thing from president obama sunday night at his rally in colorado. i think it also matters who wins or loses. both candidates in their final debate prep. mitt romney had the rally in colorado last night. he's hunkering down with the senator playing obama. you won't see much of mitt romney until wednesday night. same thing for the president. he's in nevada. he'll fly to denver on wednesday. he's got senator john kerry playing mitt romney in the debate preps. the president did...
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president barack obama and governor mitt romney get ready for a face-off at this week's first debate. >>> plus a couple of big surprises from arnold schwarzenegger who talks candidly about his childhood and the housekeeper. >>> and an epic fail by the united states. after being up for a significant lead, the guys in the ryder cup lose big, berman. >> it was a disaster. complete meltdown. well, still, good morning. and welcome to october, everyone. this is "early start." i'm john berman in washington this morning. >> and i'm sir riesirita simon. >>> president barack obama and mitt romney square off wednesday night in denver. both trying to lower expectations practically gushing over one another, but new jersey governor chris christie is going against the grain and setting the bar high for the republican nominee. >>er time mitt romney has been confronted in this campaign with one of these moments, he has come through in a debate and performed extraordinarily well laying out his vision very clearly and also contrasting himself with his vision with hoomp his opponent was at that time. so
president barack obama and governor mitt romney get ready for a face-off at this week's first debate. >>> plus a couple of big surprises from arnold schwarzenegger who talks candidly about his childhood and the housekeeper. >>> and an epic fail by the united states. after being up for a significant lead, the guys in the ryder cup lose big, berman. >> it was a disaster. complete meltdown. well, still, good morning. and welcome to october, everyone. this is "early...
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and he's going to bring congress back to have hearings next week on this issue. no question this has become a political issue and in terms of hearings, coming at a very bad time for president obama and the democrats. >> something to look for possibly if not tomorrow night in denver in that debate down the road for sure. as we talk libya, we talked a lot, erin, on your show and my show, about afghanistan. but if you look at iraq where the president ended u.s. combat relations and he's touted that, they're having huge problems there. >> it's amazing. as you talk about it, last week at his speech to the u.n. general assembly, the president went through a list of what he considered to be his big victories, osama bin laden being dead was one and ending the war in iraq was another one. september was the deadliest in terms of attack since august of 2010, which is pretty shocking since the war is technically over. on top of that reuters has some footage that we have for you of literally pictures of the iotolla from iran. pictures all over iraq now as iran is trying to ga
and he's going to bring congress back to have hearings next week on this issue. no question this has become a political issue and in terms of hearings, coming at a very bad time for president obama and the democrats. >> something to look for possibly if not tomorrow night in denver in that debate down the road for sure. as we talk libya, we talked a lot, erin, on your show and my show, about afghanistan. but if you look at iraq where the president ended u.s. combat relations and he's...